I only used the Government and Doctors in my discussion because that is the issue is in the Original Post, even though OC is just using it as an example of what Watchtower is using in their defense of a persecution. But it is relatively common for either doctors, hospitals or governments to decide what patients will get, mostly though what they will not get. The most common is that of abortions and family planning needs. Catholic hospitals have refused to either provide abortions when a mother's life is in danger or will refuse to provide sterilization to a woman even though a doctor may feel that her life is in danger if she becomes pregnant. Doctors in certain states are legally allowed to assist a terminally ill patient to end their suffering sooner, but there are doctors who have a moral reason to refuse to do so causing that patient to suffer more and more. And I understand that in most cases the patient can just go somewhere else, but that is not in all cases. Many people live in communities where there is only one hospital or a limited number of doctors to treat patients.
Richard Oliver
JoinedPosts by Richard Oliver
-
17
Blood problems in Italy
by OrphanCrow inin february 2017, the european association of jehovah's witnesses made a "submission to un human rights committee subsequent to the adoption of the list of issues on the sixth periodic report of italy".. the 119th session of the human rights committee is currently underway - the dates are march 6 - march 29.. the wts has been trying to get "intesa" status in italy for decades and this latest submission to the un highlights the problems the jws are encountering in italy concerning the blood taboo.. this link will take you to a downloadable word document that is the wt's submission being considered:.
http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/treaties/ccpr/shared%20documents/ita/int_ccpr_css_ita_26670_e.docx.
23676 of 2008: mr grassato (one of jehovah’s witnesses) was unconscious when admitted to the hospital.
-
-
-
17
Blood problems in Italy
by OrphanCrow inin february 2017, the european association of jehovah's witnesses made a "submission to un human rights committee subsequent to the adoption of the list of issues on the sixth periodic report of italy".. the 119th session of the human rights committee is currently underway - the dates are march 6 - march 29.. the wts has been trying to get "intesa" status in italy for decades and this latest submission to the un highlights the problems the jws are encountering in italy concerning the blood taboo.. this link will take you to a downloadable word document that is the wt's submission being considered:.
http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/treaties/ccpr/shared%20documents/ita/int_ccpr_css_ita_26670_e.docx.
23676 of 2008: mr grassato (one of jehovah’s witnesses) was unconscious when admitted to the hospital.
-
-
Richard Oliver
OC you are absolutely right blood transfusions do save lives. But it should also be looked at as a slippery slope, if a government can tell you what medical procedures you should or should not accept then that is when a problem does come in. It does apply to doctors as well. It is your body you get to decide what medical treatments you allow and which you deny.
-
347
ARC - Case Study 54 - All Exhibits have been released
by jwleaks inall exhibits for case study 54, jehovah's witnesses and watchtower, have been released by the arc.. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
exhibit list.
joint statement of o'brien and spinks.
-
-
Richard Oliver
Konceptual99 you provided a clear reason where you feel the policies has problems. I agree having more of a single policy would be better in the long run.
-
347
ARC - Case Study 54 - All Exhibits have been released
by jwleaks inall exhibits for case study 54, jehovah's witnesses and watchtower, have been released by the arc.. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
exhibit list.
joint statement of o'brien and spinks.
-
-
Richard Oliver
I said many people on here and then qualified it by saying and it may not apply to you. I am giving a generalized statement because I don't know you, I have never met you and this is the impression I have gotten from many people on this site. Again I acknowledged that it was a generalized statement when I wrote it.
And again I agreed with you when the Chair did ask what happens in 5 years. The point that I contended your statement was that Watchtower forced this policy only because they wanted to trick the commission. I have also acknowledged it in previously, that there is a possibility if they become complacent that it could go backwards, but that is true with any organizations policies on any number of issues, it is not unique to Watchtower.
-
347
ARC - Case Study 54 - All Exhibits have been released
by jwleaks inall exhibits for case study 54, jehovah's witnesses and watchtower, have been released by the arc.. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
exhibit list.
joint statement of o'brien and spinks.
-
-
Richard Oliver
this was opened by mistake.
-
347
ARC - Case Study 54 - All Exhibits have been released
by jwleaks inall exhibits for case study 54, jehovah's witnesses and watchtower, have been released by the arc.. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
exhibit list.
joint statement of o'brien and spinks.
-
-
Richard Oliver
I have accepted that most people on here have had a bad experience with Watchtower at one point or another, and some feel that they are either evil or corrupt or both. Some people don't hide their bias either very well or at all, and that is a fact, not saying that is you. So I know that some people on here will don't trust a single word that comes out of Watchtower, and that is their right to feel that way, and so this would be no different. I am sure most people here have read the documents but either don't believe that it will be implemented at all or will be enforced for long.
-
347
ARC - Case Study 54 - All Exhibits have been released
by jwleaks inall exhibits for case study 54, jehovah's witnesses and watchtower, have been released by the arc.. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
exhibit list.
joint statement of o'brien and spinks.
-
-
Richard Oliver
Those two statements are actually pretty easily reconcilable. One is a question to clarify how you feel. The other is a statement to show that I can see where you are coming from if you do say yes.
-
347
ARC - Case Study 54 - All Exhibits have been released
by jwleaks inall exhibits for case study 54, jehovah's witnesses and watchtower, have been released by the arc.. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
exhibit list.
joint statement of o'brien and spinks.
-
-
Richard Oliver
And are you also in the habit of accusing someone or an organization before something even happens. I understand that you would be skeptical that they will change their policies and keep with those changes. But it could be said of any organization that is trying to do better or any person. Should the US Military be disbanded because they covered up sexual abuse of both men and women, or should they be given an opportunity to implement new policies and procedures to ensure that it doesn't continue to happen.
-
347
ARC - Case Study 54 - All Exhibits have been released
by jwleaks inall exhibits for case study 54, jehovah's witnesses and watchtower, have been released by the arc.. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
exhibit list.
joint statement of o'brien and spinks.
-
-
Richard Oliver
I agree with you, in part. The chair did say that what happens in 5 years time. He did not indicate that these were cases that were just to try and fool the Commission, there is nothing in the record for that. And again, the policy for reporting a case based on the testimony of one
And again, the policy for reporting a case based on the testimony of one witness is a legal decision and for secular parts of their reporting policy. The GB has the right to keep in tact their policy that two witnesses is needed for congregational actions. So a matter will be submitted to authorities based on the single witness rule. That person's standing in the congregation would still be dependent on a two witness rule. So again two different things, one is reporting it to the police and the second is that of how the congregation sees it. Now if a person is either convicted of child abuse or if it is generally accepted in the community that he is a child abuser, then regardless if there are two witnesses or not and regardless if the person confesses or denies it, Branch restrictions will be imposed on that person. The restrictions would include limiting their ability to go out in service and handle even very trivial matters for decades.
I highly doubt that Watchtower will ignore this since it is their policy for one major reason and that is liability. I am going to step from Australia to California for this. In the Conti case, the only thing that the Appeals Court found that Watchtower did wrong was violating their own policy when Conti and Kendrick went in service.
From the Conti Case:
Allen Shuster, a Watchtower official in New York, testified that Watchtower policy allowed a known child molester to continue to perform field service, but not alone or with a child. Defense expert Monica Applewhite, whose testimony is discussed further below, said that Watchtower policies were implemented by letters sent “to all bodies of elders in the United States.” However, Shuster was unable to identify any church-wide writing that documented the limitations on field service by known child molesters. He said this policy was implemented by letters to elders on a case-by-case basis.2
...
Even if Watchtower had a policy of preventing known child molesters from performing field service alone or with children, there is no evidence that Watchtower did anything to implement that policy in Kendrick's case. Elder Abrahamson testified that Watchtower, not the Congregation, determined how matters such as the one involving Kendrick were handled. (Fn.1, supra.) Shuster said that such matters were addressed by Watchtower through letters of instruction to the elders of individual congregations, but no such letter was produced in this case. Insofar as it appears from the evidence, Watchtower placed no limits whatsoever on Kendrick's field service.
-
347
ARC - Case Study 54 - All Exhibits have been released
by jwleaks inall exhibits for case study 54, jehovah's witnesses and watchtower, have been released by the arc.. http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/exhibits/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.
exhibit list.
joint statement of o'brien and spinks.
-
-
Richard Oliver
I posted that letter again because it maybe possible that they choose not to read the letter to determine the current policy is.
It does not necessarily mean that up until that point that it was that policy, up until July 31, 2016. Because again there were 15 reports that were made at least in Australia, where some of them at least some were reported prior to August 1, 2016. That is the testimony that between the first ARC hearing and the one in March of 2017 that those are the 15 cases. So unless all 15 took place between August 1 and January 3, 2017 when it was written in written testiomy about those 15 cases being made, some of those cases had to have taken place prior to August 1, 2017. There could very well be cases where you are correct, but that is an opinion without evidence. Evidence is needed to make a legal claim against someone or an organization
Edit:Sorry let me make this more clear.
On January 3, 2017 Watchtower Australia submitted a document of written testimony prior to the ARC open hearing. In there they state that there were a number of cases reported since the last ARC hearing to indicate that they are taking the commission's recommendations seriously. The following is from the written testiomy given by Watchtower to the ARC for their March 11, 2017 Hearing:
8. Question 8: Please detail all allegations of child sexual abuse, including historical allegations, received by the Jehovah’s Witness organisation since the conclusion of the public hearing of Case Study 29. Details of each allegation should include the following (see the enclosed Microsoft Excel spreadsheet):
(a) Nature of the abuse
8.1 Since the conclusion of the public hearing of Case Study No. 29, the Australia branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses has had no reports of child sexual abuse during any congregation-sponsored activity. However, the branch office has received reports of familial and/or acquaintance child sexual abuse. A summary, as well as the details of each of these allegations, is provided to the Commission in the form requested.
8.2 Summary: Congregation elders reported to the branch office nine allegations of historical child sexual abuse alleged to have occurred before the public hearing on Case Study No. 29. Seven of these allegations have been reported to the authorities. The adult survivors in the other two cases (in Western Australia and Queensland, respectively) decided not to report the matter to the authorities. Since there was no legal obligation for the elders to report, the elders respected their privacy.
8.3 Additionally, congregation elders have reported to the branch office eight allegations of familial and/or acquaintance child sexual abuse alleged to have occurred since the conclusion of the public hearing on Case Study No. 29. All of these allegations were also reported to the authorities.
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Australia
18
8.4 The details requested in Questions 8(b) through 8(j) below for the above 17 allegations are provided in the attached Microsoft Excel spreadsheet.
That is where the report of 15 allegations were reported to authorities. There could have been 17 but two of the surviors who are adults when it was reported to the Elders asked that a report not be made. And as the ARC themselves said if an adult survior chooses not to report it, those wishes should be respected.